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  • Since UT did love Claudia so much that makes me think that's him But we won't know ?

    I wish yana would draw a flash back about them

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    • cedric k. rose?

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    • ?

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    • Who is this Cedric K. Rose? Some information please. :)

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    • Cedric K. Ros(rest of the surname unknown) is Ciel's grandfather, as he appears in the Phantomhive genealogy shown by the german shinigamis.

      I considered it as well, the problem is that his death date also seemed to be written, along with his birthdate (wich is itself a problem, as we don't know how shinigamis are originated). Since Undertaker is a shinigami that would be a problem, how could he have died? But then I thought that since he is a deserter, other shinigami may think he died, he could have feigned it.

      It would be interesting a love between Undertaker and Ciel's gran'. It would explain why he was with Vincent, and why he seems to worry about Ciel. Also, Undertaker said he had not been called "shinigami" for half a century... It could concur with Ciel's gran's life.

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    • It actually makes sense. In the latest chapter, it showed how shinigames are originated, maybe he commited suicide for one reason and then it would explain why he "likes" Vincent and Ciel

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    • yeah, I was thinking the same thing before. It's really makes sense!! maybe cedric k. rose committed suicide and become undertaker… 

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    • might be. because as seen in the latest chapter he was shedding tears for vincent which is kinda weird if they're not blood related or smth

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    • Isn't he said that he passed judgement on Robin Hood and Marie Antoinette?Or is that only in the anime?Because if it is so,then I don't think he was human (if/when) he loved Claudia.

      Or maybe they were in love in secret,and Cedric is the person she had to marry,out of duty and nobility?

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    • Envy: I agree with the person above me. Noble women in the Victorian era were forced in marriages by their parents for reputaion, money, help, ect. Perhaps Claudia and Undertaker began a love affair. But since Cedric K. Rose is her husband, shouldn't his last name be Phantomhive instead of Rose??

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    • I always suspected that undertaker had something to do with claudia, glad i'm not the only one. lol

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    • When did the manga ever indicate that Undertaker loved Claudia? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that there's got to be some sort of strong relationships with her there (familial, romantic, friendly or otherwise), because he does keep a lock of her hair with him . . . but her name isn't the only one on that thing of his.

      Am I missing something? o.o

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    • I don't think that the undertaker is Cedric k.Rose since the manga had revealed that he was a shinigami that had been reaping souls for decades & before Cedric was even born. However, I think it is clear that he has some 'relationship' with Claudia and Vincent which was revealed in the latest mange chapter.

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    • Well, we've been knowing that Undertaker was one of Vincent's contacts for awhile now (it was revealed in Noah's Ark Circus Arc, I believe). It's not new information. . . . I could take the easy way out and say that Undertaker has been a source of information for the Phantomhive families for the passed couple of generations, but then why has no one ever noticed how old he is?

      Then again, that might come back around to what Sascha was talking about, when he said the fact that Ciel can see Grim Reapers might be due to his lineage. Perhaps the Phantomhive family has been knowing about Grim Reapers for awhile now, perhaps even starting with Claudia . . . who knows?

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    • But even if Claudia and Undertaker had an unrealized relationship, why he would cry? I mean Vincent was the child of Claudia and her husband, the person who "stole" Claudia from him. And if the thing with Robin Hood is true, than he committed suicide a long time ago, so he was a shinigami when he first met  Claudia. But than again, how could Ciel see the shinigamis?

      I'm so confused...

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    • From chapter 103 of the manga we are told how Shinigami are created. (People who died via suicide) from this we know that Undertaker must have killed himself, that's a fact. But he started messing with people's lives (the start of the Bizarre Dolls)  and not doing the proper procedure of paperwork/judging the souls of the dead so he was dismissed as a Shinigami - but he still has a Death Sythe. 

      One theory  I have is that Undertaker started work on the Dolls to find the perfect way in reviving the dead. He's still working on this process but he's gotten better (see how the dolls are during the School Arc vs their first appearance in the Ship Voyage Arc) this may be because he's trying to revive Claudia.

      Ciel can see Shinigami because he 'already has a foot in the grave' he made a contract with a demon so because he was once near death/dead he can see Shinigami. This is confirmed in the manga. (Chp 103)

      Undertaker has strong feelings for Claudia's locket. He has stated that it's his 'most precious item'. This is fact. This can imply that they were once lovers but no-one knows if this was mutual or not. It's strange for him to have the locket because only family should have been able to have the locket. This could imply that Undertaker was Cedric K Ross. (A family tree record shown in Chp 103 shows that Claudia's husband was Cedric K Ross.) Ciel said he didn't know his grandmother very well which could be why he doesn't recognise Undertaker as his grandfather. (If this theory is true that is)

      If the above theory is true then why is Undertaker a undertaker? If he is a Phantomhive he should be the Earl of the manor. A nobleman to work at a funeral parlor is unusual. Also Vincent knew Undertaker whilst he was still alive. Claudia must have been known as the Countess of the manor at one point which would have in turn made Undertaker known as well...so why didn't anyone question how Vincent suddenly became the Earl after Claudia died instead of Undertaker? (I'm getting the title names wrong but you catch my drift?) And if Undertaker is Vincent's father why didn't he tell Ciel this as a child? All this leads to a theory that Undertaker and Claudia had an affair and were lovers that weren't allowed to be.

      If Undertaker and Vincent are related and father and son then why would he kill himself and leave Vincent & Francis to fend for themselves? He still cries over the death of Vincent but why would he kill himself? 

      Is Vincent the true heir to the Phantomhives and that's the reason he brought up the manor? Is Francis (Lizzy's mother) the lovechild of Undertaker and Claudia? Two things make this seem untrue one being Vincent crying tears over Vincent's death. The second that Vincent may just be the older child and naturally inherited the manor instead of Francis.


      TL;DR - There's no proof that Undertaker is Cedric. Just theories.

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    • In my opinion Undertaker has been a Shinigami for a long time before Claudia's birth. He was a well-known Shinigami and in a world of never-dying guys I think way more than 10 years are needed to become famous. Undertaker is not such a weak guy to leave the head role of the family to his wife, at the same time Claudia had to be a very strong woman for being the chief of the family and giving it her surname. That's why I think Claudia's husband had to be someone of not big deal. I believe Undertaker and Claudia met, fell in love and maybe, from a prohibited relationship, Vincent borned. Why should Undertaker treasure so much an hair of her and why should he cry thinking about Vincent after so much time if  not for something like this?! Moreover he also cares for Ciel. Actually for me he stopped being a Shinigami after Claudia's death and became informer for Vincent. Then after Vincent's death he started being an undertaker so to study dead corpses and try to revive Vincent. There is something he said that make me believe he still has Vincent's body somewhere, waiting to revive him. "The Earl is still with us", for me he's not talking about Ciel. 

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    • MilchamP wrote:
      In my opinion Undertaker has been a Shinigami for a long time before Claudia's birth. He was a well-known Shinigami and in a world of never-dying guys I think way more than 10 years are needed to become famous. Undertaker is not such a weak guy to leave the head role of the family to his wife, at the same time Claudia had to be a very strong woman for being the chief of the family and giving it her surname. That's why I think Claudia's husband had to be someone of not big deal. I believe Undertaker and Claudia met, fell in love and maybe, from a prohibited relationship, Vincent borned. Why should Undertaker treasure so much an hair of her and why should he cry thinking about Vincent after so much time if  not for something like this?! Moreover he also cares for Ciel. Actually for me he stopped being a Shinigami after Claudia's death and became informer for Vincent. Then after Vincent's death he started being an undertaker so to study dead corpses and try to revive Vincent. There is something he said that make me believe he still has Vincent's body somewhere, waiting to revive him. "The Earl is still with us", for me he's not talking about Ciel. 

      Undertaker worked as a funeral director when Vincent was alive though. Vincent and Lizzy's mom are siblings so why doesn't Undertaker show any affection to his daughter?

      Undertaker already stated that Vincent's body, even his bones burnt. This could be a lie/trick but how else would you explain Vincent's absense for all these years?

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    • Well, maybe Vincent and Lizzy's mum had different fathers. It could be she's actually Cedric K.Roses's daughter, after all he was the real husband of Claudia. About Undertaker working as funeral director it could simply mean he was thinking about this idea of the Dolls since a longer time.

      Finally if Vincent is dead it's not like he'd go walking around the streets ahaahahahahahahahah but Undertaker, as Shinigami, could be able to maintain a body unchanged for a long time. In chapter 105  while Shinigamis are talking about why should someone stop being a Shinigami there's a strange image in which someone dead (looking like Vincent) lies in the arm of someone crying (looking like Undertaker, with the same hairstyle he holds in 105 chapter's opening pages about the characters popularity ranking) and well the body is not burned at all. 

      I'm just saying is not so implausible!

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    • MilchamP wrote:
      Well, maybe Vincent and Lizzy's mum had different fathers. It could be she's actually Cedric K.Roses's daughter, after all he was the real husband of Claudia. About Undertaker working as funeral director it could simply mean he was thinking about this idea of the Dolls since a longer time.

      Finally if Vincent is dead it's not like he'd go walking around the streets ahaahahahahahahahah but Undertaker, as Shinigami, could be able to maintain a body unchanged for a long time. In chapter 105  while Shinigamis are talking about why should someone stop being a Shinigami there's a strange image in which someone dead (looking like Vincent) lies in the arm of someone crying (looking like Undertaker, with the same hairstyle he holds in 105 chapter's opening pages about the characters popularity ranking) and well the body is not burned at all. 

      I'm just saying is not so implausible!

      You mentioned the picture in chapter 105? Actually, I believe that was a cameo appearance of Eric Slingby (the one holding the body and crying) and Alan Humphries (the dead body). Eric and Alan, two Shinigami, appeared in the Kuroshitsuji musical "The Most Beautiful Death in the World". If you'll look to the right of the two, there is a saw, which is Eric's death scythe. It can be inferred that the body, Alan, that the man, Eric, is holding was killed by that saw. In the play, Eric accidentally kills Alan with the scythe while fighting Sebastian. Alan and Eric were lovers, as it is revealed in the end of the play. Eric is distinguishable by the cornrows in his hair, and his goatee. 

      I think, regarding this "Undertaker is Cedric" theory: No, I don't Undertaker is Cedric. I think someone mentioned above that Claudia may have had to marry Cedric for society's reasons (screw society), and I think that is most likely what happened. Undertaker and her probably had an affair, but as a immortal Shinigami, he could not stay with her, and probably they ended up splitting apart for that reason. Perhaps, his reasons for crying over Vincent are that he was reminded painfully of Claudia, and maybe is planning to revive the both of them (maybe the body isn't burnt up like we thought). Why Vincent as well, you ask? If you were a mother, wouldn't you want your kid revived as well as you? 

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    • What if Undertaker reaped Vincent's soul that night? Maybe that's what he means when he says that the earl is still with them. The body may have truly burnt to ashes after all. It's not like Undertaker cares about rules anyways, and since he obviously has strong feelings for him, he could've easily tried to savour the soul in order to revive him later on as some have already mentioned the bizarre dolls. Plus, he *still* has that death scythe. Maybe he knew what was about to happen, or at least found out in time to be the first Shinigami there. Maybe other Shinigami actually arrived and tried to take the soul from him but he fended them off, perhaps that's how he got into an actual conflict with his kind and they scarred him, it had to happen in a fight with somebody wielding a death scythe, I doubt anything else could inflict permanent wounds on a Shinigami like that. But hey, just my imagination running in the background, purely theory.

      I also don't think the Undertaker is Cedric, I feel like that would just be too easy to put together and some of you had already pointed out why that would not be possible even. I definitely do feel like he's part of the family though, despite not really being a fan of the idea myself. But here's what really bothers me: Shinigami are humans who had commited suicide in the past, but that doesn't make any sense - Death Gods judge the souls of the deceased and choose whether they go to heaven or not, but then what about the time before the first suicide was commited??? Did human souls just remain in nature as wandering spirits lacking closure? Did they all fall pray to demons? It just makes no sense to me and I hate to think it was just a rash, thoughtless mistake on Toboso's end. The way this works means that humans had to exist prior to death gods, but at the same time, death gods had to exist before humans so that they could reap their souls. This loop is a paradox and it's driving me crazy, am I missing something guys?? I hope further chapters will stabilize the story once again, after all, it's such a good story.

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    • If Undertaker really was Cedric K. Rose, it could still make sense. Note that Grim Reapers in general can pose as different people. What if Undertaker decided to pose as a family member. It would then make a lot of sense. He could've faked his parents. Cloudia's last name being passed instead of his. It's possible that he just faked it to be with Cloudia. Cloudia died at the age of 36(for unknown reasons), but it makes a lot more sense because he would've known Vincent as a young child. Vincent then would've known him till he died. This then makes Ciel his grandson. This then means that Undertaker still could've committed suicide when he was alive. He could've even used his old name from when he was a human. No one actually said anything about him not being a Grim Reaper. I worked it out and it makes sense because it took him about 50 years to quit doing the services of a Grim Reaper and to meet Cloudia when she was in her early 20s. It's possible he met her even before that. Anyway this is what I believe.

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    •  I would like to give my theory to this topic. I will note my different points by using numbers, and then you can decide by looking at these points if you think if it's probable or not.

      Nr1 How long has Undertaker been a Shinigami, or at least how much older than the other could we say he is, and when did he stop being active?

      1.1) Undertaker must be an older Shinigami, even if the anime season 1 story isn't canon, or it's just a watered down version of who he was. He is the only Shinigami we've seen who owns a actual Scythe as Death Scythe, if we look at all the Shinigami we've meet till now, they always had more modern looking scythes, i.e: Chainsaw, lawnmower, tree pruner, heck there's even a Shinigami with a circular saw.  Undertaker on the other hand, his scythe has an older design, he has the typical death scythe we affiliate with death, nothing modern with it at all, which leads me to believe that he got his scythe a long, long time ago. 

      1.2) He says himself: "How nostalgic, it's been half a century since someone last called me that" in regards to Grell calling him a death god. If we look at the timeline, we currently are in the year 1889; we can conclude that he was either still active in the years before 1859, or he had deserted before that time, but that, that had been the time he managed to go into hiding. If it’s the latter though, he would have been hunted because he still had his death scythe.

      Nr 1.3) Here I have something interesting to note, there is actually the book or circus art book, which contains the names of all the people on the lockets and their death dates: 

      Claudia P. (died July 13, 1866) /  Alex B. (died April 20, 1854) /  Oliver A. (died November 13, 1840) /  Emile C. (died June 18, 1848) / Harry E. (died October 11, 1841) / Gilbert D. (died March 1, 1884 ) (this one was apparently not as legible, but I will take it like it's written here for now.) / Molly G. (died December 10, 1837)

        X

      As we can see, the oldest death on the locket dates back to the year 1837. on the 10th of December which could either mean he had human contacts before he left the dispatch, or he had already left and was already working with humans, aka, as an Undertaker before he knew the Phantomhives. Maybe even before that, since he most likely didn't get a mourning locket for a woman he barely knew, so it’s probably that he had deserted before meeting that first person on his locket.

      Looking at these lockets, I noted that the newest isn't in fact Claudia's, but actually of a man named Gilbert D. Who died 5 years ago from our current time, now the question is, who is that man? Why would he be important? Or is he just a person Undertaker had ties with? None of the people, with their names on the locket had ties with each other, let alone the Phantomhives. This is canon, as we remember seeing/reading Sebastian telling Ciel that his investigations showed no ties between the people on the lockets other than that they all knew Undertaker in some way or form. 

      In short, he has been a deserted long before meeting the Phantomhive’s and he most likely had ties with humans before deserting as a Death God, and later in time meet Claudia. Which rules out the theory of: Undertaker was Claudia’s husband/lover who killed himself when she died.

      Nr2 Undertakers name and does he even have one/ is the human name still valid after becoming a reaper?

      This is also something to think about, in the circus arc. Remember how Joker’s name had been “lost”, even though it had been implied that he may have had a name before becoming Joker.

      Who is to say that after all his years of being a death god, Undertaker even still has an official name? What if his name really just is “Undertaker”, because nobody remembers/knows his real name anymore? We don’t know if death gods have their own “doomsday book” or they are the physical form of their cinematic records manifesting to become a death god.

      Of course, he may also have a real name, besides Undertaker, but I think the name Cedric. K Ros…) is far to “modern” for him to actually have been named that, since we can establish that he is one of the older reapers to exist.

      So in that area, there’s already a big snag with the Undertaker is the father theory. And I have already thought about the idea that his name may be a derivation of his “former real name” but why would the name on Ciel’s lineage have this “fake” name instead of his “real name”, and why would his name need a death and birth date if he was a reaper by that point already anyway?

      Nr3 Are reapers fertile? (actually something that people seemingly overlook all the time.)

      Now here’s an actually important question we need answered, can reapers even make babies? The most logical answer is: No, they cannot make babies. How can I be so sure? It has been established that reapers are humans who committed suicide, and then became reapers as punishment. They are in essence, dead.

      And why should someone who’s being punished for killing themselves be able to conceive a child or father a child? Or let me rephrase that; how could someone who’s dead still have the ability to become a biological parent? Especially a being who’s actual human body is already rotten bones? Reapers may, most likely, be the souls/cinematic records of the suicide victim turned into a physical form. Yes we know they need to eat and sleep like humans would, but they don’t need to breath, and are heat/cold resistance, also they are pretty much indestructible unless they get hurt with a death scythe or contract the thorns of death. We cannot say to for certain by this alone if they can have/make babies, but we really just have to look more at the idea: Why would they be allowed to have kids, if they are themselves the left overs of a suicide?

      Option 1 (Two reapers). Since being a reaper is a form of punishment, why should they be able to have children? Let’s say they could have children and the child were to be a reaper, why would a newborn life be punished for something it didn’t do? What would it’s body be made of? How would a reaper be able to create a new soul/cinematic record to create a reaper baby? Undertaker himself said that a new soul couldn’t just be created so that would rule this option out. The ranks of the reapers get extended with the arrival of new suicide victims, it would probably take unnecessary time to raise a kid to be a  death god, especially since they would lack the “human” viewpoint that suicide reapers have.

      Option 2 (Two reapers). What if the baby were to be human? Well, how would that work? The reapers are not actual humans anymore, as we know, they aren’t humans anymore and most likely only their leftovers, since they can’t keep a human body after death, and in itself, it would make sense if they had human babies, what would happen to them? They can’t keep them in the reaper realm, so that would rule that option out too.

       Option 3 (a human and a reaper) Here's the same problem as in the other options, can a literally dead person, who may just be created from his/her own soul/records create a new creature, even with the help of an actual living human? 

      What would happen to the child? What if it inherited the eyes of the reaper (bi-coloured green), would it be a reaper? Would it have some of the powers? Could it see Cinematic records?

      How would the DNA of a human and reaper be able to melt into a new being, would it even be able to survive? And so on.

      Nr 4 What Undertaker sees, what Ciel doesn’t see.

      Obviously it’s weird that Ciel is able to see or maybe even sense reapers, but I don’t think that is enough to tell that he’s part reaper. People have used Lizzy to say that she may be part reaper as well, because of how she reacted to the Bizzare dolls on the Campania. But if we look back at that chapter, she was in battle, which is apparently a huge part of her character, which means it may just have been her fighting instincts kicking in, and her becoming aware of her surroundings, in order to get the best possibility for survival. After all, she almost got into a trance when fighting, and it was Sebastian who snapped her out of it. Before that point she was clueless, like when she was in the cargo hold, she didn’t sense them, which lead to the death of Ciel’s strawberry tart.

      Same goes for Ciel, in most cases he doesn’t seem to be able to sense the death gods, unless he is in a situation where death is on his heels.

      Nr5

       Now here is what I believe, it’s Claudia, not her husband or father of Vincent, they are talking about, when referring to his lineage. I have yet to see a theory how Undertaker could be Vincent’s father or in a familiar bond with the Phantomhives in general, without it making little to no sense.

      And thinking that Claudia may actually play a bigger role in the long run seems allot more likely.

      Just because Undertaker has her name on one of his lockets doesn’t mean that he loved her, not on a romantic level anyway, but he may just have deeply cared for her, jut like he did for these other people, and also did for Vincent.

      As a summary idea for this, even the idea that Claudia was contracted or killed by a demon seems more likely than Undertaker being Vincent’s father, to be honest.

      Also I heard there is a theory that Undertaker "romanced" Vicount Druitts mother, ie Emile C. for those that hold this believe, Emile is a blokes name. 

      Ps: I will see to add some links to the pages of the manga that I used to explain my idea with. And the site I found the death dates from the locket on.

      Also may add more, (God no! I can hear you scream) if I find the time and remember more points about this general topic.

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    • CCBanjy22 wrote:
      If Undertaker really was Cedric K. Rose, it could still make sense. Note that Grim Reapers in general can pose as different people. What if Undertaker decided to pose as a family member. It would then make a lot of sense. He could've faked his parents. Cloudia's last name being passed instead of his. It's possible that he just faked it to be with Cloudia. Cloudia died at the age of 36(for unknown reasons), but it makes a lot more sense because he would've known Vincent as a young child. Vincent then would've known him till he died. This then makes Ciel his grandson. This then means that Undertaker still could've committed suicide when he was alive. He could've even used his old name from when he was a human. No one actually said anything about him not being a Grim Reaper. I worked it out and it makes sense because it took him about 50 years to quit doing the services of a Grim Reaper and to meet Cloudia when she was in her early 20s. It's possible he met her even before that. Anyway this is what I believe.

      yes, but the German Shinigami mentioned that Ciel's lineage could be the reason why he can see death gods. so, it doesn't have to be the Undertaker, but somebody obviously wasn't faking it. i'm not even saying Ciel had to be biologically related to a Shinigami, but there was obviously a predecessor involved that could have passed on this ability all the way to Ciel for some unknown reason. why they would have this ability if not for being a Shinigami themself is beyond me...but how did you come to the conclusion that it took him 50 years to quit? 

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    • Look up The Reaper Ankou. He is said to be a reaper who is the right hand to Death. (Thee Grim Reaper) And UT is about 80-90% similar in comparison.

      I have a personal headcannon/theory not all reapers are made through suicide, that idea/thought came to me, after reading the lore Ankou. In some Ankou Lore, it is said he always was, as was Death. Just a lesser. So Reapers can be born, just like humans. (They are just supernatural creature/being)

      Why I think ones who do commit suicide become pubic servants, for obvious reasons (and how it is stated in the Manga) Perhaps suicide Reapers are treated differently, then born ones. While there as been in fighting by some..they want to rise higher in the ranks to prove their self worth, and even going as far as not crossing over..maybe they have choice.."You have paid for reckless actions, you are now left with two choices 1, head into the light, you can finally crossover, or..remain here with us, and  descend to a higher position. ( EXMAPLE: Maybe Wililm was one of these Reapers who did just that?)

      So if UT is base off Ankou, or is later to be reveled as Thee Ankou..The said cannon-information of how Reapers come into existents would make no sense, since Ankou is seen as a born supernatural being, in the tales.

      This also means, if my fan theory/personal headcannon becomes real..that means Sebby was baby demon too, at one time, dawww!!!!

      I also have another Personal headcannon, that Claudia is really UT's Sis. And her last name is Phantomhive cuz she married into the family. Back in these days, women were owned. (even if some said husbands treated their wives  fairly and give her 100% rights/freedom, the law would not do so)  So makes sense her maiden name would be over written/replace by her married name, Phantomhive. 

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    • QueenofObscurePairings wrote:

      Look up The Reaper Ankou. He is said to be a reaper who is the right hand to Death. (Thee Grim Reaper) And UT is about 80-90% similar in comparison.

      I have a personal headcannon/theory not all reapers are made through suicide, that idea/thought came to me, after reading the lore Ankou. In some Ankou Lore, it is said he always was, as was Death. Just a lesser. So Reapers can be born, just like humans. (They are just supernatural creature/being)

      Why I think ones who do commit suicide become pubic servants, for obvious reasons (and how it is stated in the Manga) Perhaps suicide Reapers are treated differently, then born ones. While there as been in fighting by some..they want to rise higher in the ranks to prove their self worth, and even going as far as not crossing over..maybe they have choice.."You have paid for reckless actions, you are now left with two choices 1, head into the light, you can finally crossover, or..remain here with us, and  descend to a higher position. ( EXMAPLE: Maybe Wililm was one of these Reapers who did just that?)

      So if UT is base off Ankou, or is later to be reveled as Thee Ankou..The said cannon-information of how Reapers come into existents would make no sense, since Ankou is seen as a born supernatural being, in the tales.

      This also means, if my fan theory/personal headcannon becomes real..that means Sebby was baby demon too, at one time, dawww!!!!

      I also have another Personal headcannon, that Claudia is really UT's Sis. And her last name is Phantomhive cuz she married into the family. Back in these days, women were owned. (even if some said husbands treated their wives  fairly and give her 100% rights/freedom, the law would not do so)  So makes sense her maiden name would be over written/replace by her married name, Phantomhive. 

      this is clearly getting off topic. fortunately, a related thread already exists - anybody interested can join the conversation here :) ---> http://kuroshitsuji.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:31349#23

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    • I still feel Claudia could be his sister..

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    • QueenofObscurePairings wrote:
      I still feel Claudia could be his sister..

      That's impossible since Undertaker's been a Reaper for longer than she had been alive, he probably already was a reaper when her Mother was still a baby. 

      He did say that he had been living as a reaper for a very long time, and that it's been 50 years since he'd been called a reaper, those 50 years ago, Claudia was still a toddler, so from a time line stand point alone it doesn't make sense.

      Or if you're talking about Cedric being her brother... No, on the family tree it's made clear that Vincent is the offspring of Claudia and Cedric, and it's pretty doubtful that that's what going on, not to mention that they would have had the same last name in that case.

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    • TeaGem wrote:
      QueenofObscurePairings wrote:
      I still feel Claudia could be his sister..

      That's impossible since Undertaker's been a Reaper for longer than she had been alive, he probably already was a reaper when her Mother was still a baby. 

      He did say that he had been living as a reaper for a very long time, and that it's been 50 years since he'd been called a reaper, those 50 years ago, Claudia was still a toddler, so from a time line stand point alone it doesn't make sense.

      Or if you're talking about Cedric being her brother... No, on the family tree it's made clear that Vincent is the offspring of Claudia and Cedric, and it's pretty doubtful that that's what going on, not to mention that they would have had the same last name in that case.

      I have headcannon there are also born reapers..too. As it makes no sense if all reapers are ones who kill themselfs..as who would tell them.."YOUR A REAPER NOW" you know? So I think there are born ones too..That would be UT and his sister. And his sister pulled a "Meet Job Black" or "Death Takes Hoilday" found a mortal to love and maybe Death himself did something to her over long period of time..which could be reason why he left the reaper order and why he hates Royaliy. And could explain Ciel's gifted to see demons(or more why Seb came so willingly so fast, when many others beg for gods/demons to come but they never do) and reapers. Since UT's sis is his Grandmother. (well in my theory..either way) Say UT is Grandfather to easy. He will still be blood realted by blood..just not a grandfather.

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    • QueenofObscurePairings wrote:
      TeaGem wrote:
      QueenofObscurePairings wrote:

      That wouldn't work because of the death date of Claudia's parents though. Even thought it's obscure, it's not too hard to make out that they are around 17xx and maybe even 18xx, for birth and death date.

      You can of course have you headcanon, not saying anything against that, but considering Manga canon it seems unlikely.

      Sascha clearly stated that humans who take their lives become reapers, so that's set in stone. If they are able to have children is unclear, but we'd have to wait to find out.

      Another reason why it's unlikely is because Claudia is a Phantomhive from birth, seeing as Cedric is a "Ros..." and we know that the Phantomhive's have been working for the Royal household for a long time.

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    • But does that then imply that the 1st human ever to die had commited suicide? Because, as I'd mentioned (perhaps in another post), Grim reapers should have technically existed prior to initial human deaths, since there had to have been reapers to take their soul. Is it too far-fetched to assume so? I feel like there's a series of problems with the whole chain of events - if reapers = suicide victims, then humans had to have existed first. But, following the beforehand logic, reapers *should* have existed earlier. The only sensible arrangement of said events (that I can currenly think of) would be that the first human ever to die commited suicide; and that seems highly unlikely. Of course, the entire chain is completely disassembled if one suspects that souls have not always been so properly organised and kept "returned" in some magical place. Perhaps they were left wandering? Maybe that's how demons eventually came to be...? These are all just crazy suggestions, my question is would it make sense to think that what Sascha said was the entire, exclusive truth? Because I tend to think there's other ways to make a reaper...and Sascha is a rookie, so I don't exactly trust their span of knowledge on the subject is great enough yet...

      Opinions?

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    • Yabbuca wrote:

      If we go by the idea that the "Will the Reaper OVA" gave, then our reapers, aren't "The Reaper".

      In short, Death, the one we know, with skull and scythe, was the original death, but when humans started committing suicide, death, or god, decided to punish them by forcing them to live through the deaths of the humans around them, until they had earned their retribution.

      Basically making our reapers a form of "the living dead". 

      And the reapers before human thing, since Kuro bases itself around christian beliefs, I got a pretty simple explanation for you.

      The first humans weren't supposed to die, only when they were cast out of the garden Eden did they become mortal, until that point, death had not existed for them. I'd say that in that case, maybe death, (The Death) first came to be. 

      Also, Sascha's position is unclear, why do you assume that he's a rookie? And it is made pretty clear that the reapers are people who committed suicide, and I would say that nothing hints towards reapers being able to reproduce, unless you got any proof that they can. 

      Most of the canon proof points towards reapers being suicide victims, and why would a innocent soul be damned to watch people's deaths? If they could have children, then that would be a cruel fate indeed, not to mention that Sascha clearly stated that being a reaper is supposed to be a form of punishment.

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    • TeaGem wrote:
      QueenofObscurePairings wrote:
      TeaGem wrote:
      QueenofObscurePairings wrote:
      That wouldn't work because of the death date of Claudia's parents though. Even thought it's obscure, it's not too hard to make out that they are around 17xx and maybe even 18xx, for birth and death date.

      You can of course have you headcanon, not saying anything against that, but considering Manga canon it seems unlikely.

      Sascha clearly stated that humans who take their lives become reapers, so that's set in stone. If they are able to have children is unclear, but we'd have to wait to find out.

      Another reason why it's unlikely is because Claudia is a Phantomhive from birth, seeing as Cedric is a "Ros..." and we know that the Phantomhive's have been working for the Royal household for a long time.


      Wait! Her parents...HOW DID I MISS THIS!?

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    • QueenofObscurePairings
      QueenofObscurePairings removed this reply because:
      ....
      04:29, October 29, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • TeaGem wrote:

      I don't recall mention of "the original death" by any of the reapers...could you please tell me where exactly this excerpt is? And I don't really take OVA's seriously precisely because they're OVAs. There's an OVA in which it is shown that all of Kuroshitsuji is actually just staged play. In that case, all of our assumptions are false to begin with. Which is why it's pretty much obligatory to disregard OVAs in terms of actual storyline and plot.

      "The first humans weren't supposed to die, only when they were cast out of the garden Eden did they become mortal, until that point, death had not existed for them. I'd say that in that case, maybe death, (The Death) first came to be." 

      - How though? That's what I'm asking here. And if THE Death just "came to be", all of a sudden, created by the gods or something, then that only proves the existence of "non-suicidal" reapers, which is what I was talking about. I wasn't referring to sexual reproduction since reapers don't exactly function the way we do - the only common trait is need for sleep. I'm not sure how they'd come to be, but what you said yourself only further makes me believe that reapers exclusively being suicide victims doesn't hold up. I think there's mention of multiple Ankous being the last person to die in a fire somewhere, maybe that would be just as plausible as suicide.

      Also, my apologies if it's not factual, I read the manga a long time ago and remember Sascha appearing as a subordinate of that other reaper..? (can't remember the name) So thinking that they were in the same spot as Ronald, for instance, came automatically. Plus, I'm sure the round glasses subconsciously made me think of those newly recruited reapers from the OVA. :P Ironic.

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    • Yabucca wrote:
      TeaGem wrote:

      Well, of course there is the staged part of the "making of KS2" but considering that Yana has talked about the certain aspects of the "Will the Reaper OVA" there seems to be at least some canon information. She confirmed that Will and Grell worked together on their first reap, that Grell liked how strong William was, and that Grell fell in love with him that day, also that Grell was an A student. If I hadn't known about the fact that Yana has talked about this, I'd have disregarded it too, but since she confirmed allot of it, I'm more inclined to believe that there's allot of truth behind it.

      In terms of "The Death" being created by Adam and Eve being cast out Garden Eden. Their sinfulness and their loss of immortality created him, or it was in fact god who created death. Maybe just as an abstract, and the whole thing with the skull and scythe could be complete bollocks, but that has nothing to do with a human dying. It's simply the loss of immortality for Adam and Eve which created the human death. 

      But anyway, that doesn't have jack to do with Kuro, we could talk about this for ages and wouldn't come to a conclusion. 

      What is canon is that reapers are suicide victims, there was never any hint that the Reapers in Kuro could have children, have been reaper children, or that they even age. It would also not make sense, considering that it was clear that it's supposed to punish them, why should a innocent be punished for something it didn't do? That would make no sense at all.

      But even so, let's agree to disagree, since I'm pretty sure that Yana could change everything about the reapers existence whenever she wanted.

      Sascha's glasses aren't round though. They are square and not anything like the fledgling glasses, and he wasn't shown as a subordinate, he was partnered with Ludger/Rudger, like William with Grell was in that same arc. He could of course be younger, but that doesn't mean much, since their visual age doesn't have to represent their actual age. 

      And the simple, rounded glasses also seem to be canon, Yana drew Grell and Will as students and they had the same glasses.

      Have a nice day.

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    • TeaGem wrote:

      Yes, but those confirmations were more about the characters themselves, not Grim reapers as a group of divine sentient beings. For the most part, the OVA displays their business surroundings and daily tasks as well as development of individual relationships between characters, that's all.

      Exactly, we can interpret Death as loss of immortality all we want - but the reapers of Kuroshitsuji are obviously more than an abstract depiction of Death. They are separate entities with characteristics specific to their kind, exclusively. Death obviously does not work as a centralised force here, so how did this mass of Death gods accumulate over time? All from human suicide? So are we assuming Adam and Eve were the 1st humans alive and their act of disobedience towards God was a symbolical suicide? Is it safe to interpret it as such?

      And you must have misunderstood? I'm not saying reapers reproduce. We haven't seen a single female reaper to even begin assuming so. But, if Adam and Eve did commit the "1st suicide" as addressed above, then we know for a fact that there is at least 1 female among them. And why wouldn't there be - did women not commit suicide at all? Sounds silly. Again, I am not saying they reproduce. I actually gave an example of possible other ways for reapers to form, like the Ankou mithology mentioned before. Despite immortal, they clearly follow a timeline (you mentioned their "age" yourself, and so did Undertaker)

      And you're right, I've found some pictures and they aren't as round as I remember. Still, we might not know the entire truth. Is it safe to suspect a person who commited suicide and became a reaper is objectively aware of the entire mechanism and is not just a subject of that one single form of transformation? Not saying it's a lie, just might be misleading.

      Umm...you too? Not sure if that was genuine or just an agitated response? I'm not arguing with you, I just think what you said yourself points to a loophole, perhaps only because of our current lack of information...

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    • I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm saying there might be more to it.

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    • Yabucca wrote:
      TeaGem wrote:

      If you read the conversation between William and Ronald at the end of the circus arc, William makes it clear that they are only supposed to reap and judge the souls from the list they get from a "higher being". Both William  and at a later point, Grell say that they only judge if the person is supposed to die or not, but not when they are going to die or anything like that. The higher being could be god, or Death, of course that one lacks the manga confirmation, but we know that the reapers have someone above them.

      There is the problem again, we don't know how Yana herself interprets the existence of death, but we know that the reapers work under the orders of a higher entity. But I did not say that Eve and Adam committed suicide, I said that their loss of immortality could potentially have spawned the human death, which is actually true if we look at it. God cursed Adam and Eve and their offspring with mortality.

      We know that the reapers are suicide victims, and we also know that they can work towards their retribution, we just don't know how long that might take for them to get that retribution. 

      Anyway, Yana has confirmed years ago that female reapers exist, she just hasn't put on out in the field yet, maybe she will one day, or maybe she prefers keeping the females as secretaries, but they do exist.

      Well, Sascha could be 10 year a reaper, or even 100 years, we don't know. But I think he might have some basic knowledge about this, especially considering that it sounds like the most sensical. I think that's actually a belief in asian countries too.

      I was not being sarcastic, I meant it. I think, even if we may disagree, that it doesn't mean that we have to start fighting or anything like that.

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    • True, there is probably someone higher in charge. If that's some sort of higher god, fine. But if it's Death, then what does it mean? What is Death then, if not the reapers themselves? If there's anything more "Death with a capital D" than the reapers, what is there left for it to be, to do, to embody, to mean? I've always had a hard time believing so, but you never know and I respect it as a possible outcome nonetheless.

      Don't worry I know you didn't, I'm saying that it would then make more sense (to me at least). 1st there were humans, which then reproduced, then they commited "suicide", so that then there were reapers to reap the souls of the remaining human offspring. Seems pretty tidy, does it not?

      The retribution is the end of a reaper's existence, therefore I don't think it should affect the very beginning of their collective kind. But who knows, I'm still just very sceptical. I feel like we're being shown a very precise amount of the greater picture and that there are things we're not supposed to see yet. And Sascha's explanation specifically is fishy to me due to things I've already said.

      Ah, right, the females were confirmed. I remember having read that somewhere on this wiki.

      Okay then, I'm glad we're on the same page. :) But anyways, thanks for telling me your opinion, I'd like to hear what others make of all this...have a good one! ;)

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    • Yabucca wrote:

      That's actual the question. In Christianity, they got the God, the father, Jesus, the son, and the Holy spirit. The holy spirit is more of an abstract rather than anything tangible, I always saw death as something like that. 

      Maybe Death is the one who decides who dies and when, the Reapers have to just "reap" the souls? And if a reaper decides to that a person is valuable, then death does't exist for that person for a few years into the future?

      Sweet candy canes, I'm getting a headache from all the stuff I'm thinking about right now, concerning that specific topic. 

      Yes, tidy, works for me I guess. I hope Yana explains this a little more, maybe some backstory for the reapers? Undertaker and Grell are the two I'd really like to know about.

      Well, we know that Undertaker stated that he had been a reaper for a very long time. Who knows how long a reaper would have to work before he was allowed peace for his soul?

      I hope Yana explain it one. day.

      Anyway, have a nice day and a spooky Halloween: >w>

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    • The Father, the Son and the Holy ghost are also viewed as aspects of a single entity, so I don't particularly like the analogy...In short, The Father is suspposed to represent the vertical aspect of the cross - the love raining from above, He represents God's divine love of man. The Son is the horizontal - He is love among us, man's love for mankind. The Ghost is present in the centre, It is divine love present within each one of us. In such a way, the Judeochristian God is a three-dimensional entity present everywhere and in everything.

      Maaaybe this could work in a two-dimensional way with this "Death" and reapers...? Perhaps!

      And yes, it's very hard to keep up with all the details, as you can see I've already messed up several facts in just a few posts, so I know how that headache feels. :/

      And yes, I'm very interested in the Undertaker and his Ankou-ish origin as well.

      Oh yeah, it's just around the corner! Have fun trick or treating if you'll dress up :P

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    • Yabucca wrote:
      True, there is probably someone higher in charge. If that's some sort of higher god, fine. But if it's Death, then what does it mean? What is Death then, if not the reapers themselves? If there's anything more "Death with a capital D" than the reapers, what is there left for it to be, to do, to embody, to mean? I've always had a hard time believing so, but you never know and I respect it as a possible outcome nonetheless.

      Don't worry I know you didn't, I'm saying that it would then make more sense (to me at least). 1st there were humans, which then reproduced, then they commited "suicide", so that then there were reapers to reap the souls of the remaining human offspring. Seems pretty tidy, does it not?

      The retribution is the end of a reaper's existence, therefore I don't think it should affect the very beginning of their collective kind. But who knows, I'm still just very sceptical. I feel like we're being shown a very precise amount of the greater picture and that there are things we're not supposed to see yet. And Sascha's explanation specifically is fishy to me due to things I've already said.

      Ah, right, the females were confirmed. I remember having read that somewhere on this wiki.

      Okay then, I'm glad we're on the same page. :) But anyways, thanks for telling me your opinion, I'd like to hear what others make of all this...have a good one! ;)


      OMG! Reading this "Death with a capital D"...Did I sense another Discworld fan haha

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    • BUT ALL AND ALL!...

      Seeing as this is all fictional, and EVEN! Yana/Kuro is  known for making it's own AU's in their OVAs (and the original anime timeline) I guess I follow my own AU/Timeline too. Where Reapers can be born, as well as made through suicide.  I have a thing in my headcannon/AU.  That the suicide reapers differ in position to real born reapers. And UT and his Sister (Claudia in my version) are two of the born reapers. And in reaper world, UT/Claudia lost their parents somehow and he had to rise her, and then we become old enough joined ranks to train to be a reaper..(and BECOME ONE OF MOST FAMOUS! And become the ANKOU we know in our mortal lore) to help surrport his sister. Then later, seeing how I treat reapers my view as form of knightdom/or Nobel..She become nobel by defult cuz of her bro..and maybe for laughs UT took is Sis to human world for fun and she made met man that would be her later husband..(But Death wasn't please..which lead something happening to and later some odd curse fall upon all Phantomhives) which lead to UT hating Royality..


      Also on a random note..In  the "Will the Reaper" it made it look like, they were born other w0rldly-begings (not made through self murder) trying out of reaper-dom. Going to Reaper school. Like we mortals would for other positions/jobs.

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    • QueenofObscurePairings wrote:

      Nope, I have no idea what Discworld is haha. ^^;; It's a fairly common phrase, that's all.

      And honestly I'm not going to discuss any personal cannon because it's just pointless, kudos to anyone if they manage to predict something correctly though.

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    • I just realized something...
      Doesn't Undertaker look oddly similar to Grell? Not just their appearance, but also how they act and speak. They talk dramatically and when something happens that they like, they do something crazy. And here is another thing! In one episode, Sebastian called Grell Madam Red. But everyone knows that Madam Red died already. We all know Grell is a transgender, so why did Sebastian refer Grell as Madam Red?
      Undertaker

      He really does look like Grell! Just open that mouth so we can see your sharp teeth...

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    • well honestly, it's anime, everybody kind of looks similar. xD ^^;

      look at Claude and William, or Grey and Ash for instance... the only characters that were obviously made to resemble one another are Vincent and Sebastian (a resemblance way more disturbing in my opinion).

      please refresh my memory, i don't recall Sebastian calling Grell "madam Red". :/

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    • by "refresh my memory" i mean - either state the precise episode or give me some context if you are able to, i'm curious.

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    • 79.115.123.217 wrote: Isn't he said that he passed judgement on Robin Hood and Marie Antoinette?Or is that only in the anime?Because if it is so,then I don't think he was human (if/when) he loved Claudia.

      Or maybe they were in love in secret,and Cedric is the person she had to marry,out of duty and nobility?

      If we consider Sir Walter Scott's "Ivanhoe", set in 1194, then that puts Undertaker as a parallel to Cedric of Rotherwood... a Franklin noble who indeed had dealings with Robin Hood (Robin of Locksley). And it means he was a reaper long before meeting Cloudia or gathering her children. Looks like they never married (at least not each other). Check out my theories on Tumblr @abybweisse

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    • There are several ways in which Undertaker enters in the mix of the Phantomhives, all of them plausible with the info we have at the moment:

      -Undertaker was a shinigami long before he mets Claudia. They fell in love, Claudia dies/is killed by Undertaker himself.

      -Undertaker is Ciel's grandpa (Cedric). Claudia and him had a relationship and were married.

      -Undertaker is Ciel's grandpa. Claudia and him had a relationship, but they were in a love triangle with the Phantomhive of the time in the mix.

      -Undertaker was Claudia's lover (married or not), he commits suicide after Claudia's death.

      -Claudia's death was a mess or misunderstanding of some sort. According to what Undertaker said in Book of Atlantic/the manga, zombies don't "lie". Maybe Claudia was killed by Undertaker. Or she commited suicide (which rise the question "women can be shinigamis too?").

      That doesn't fully explains his attitude toward Ciel, though. If Vincent's (and by extension, the Phantomhive twins) are Undertaker's family, it really doesn't make sense he tries to kill Ciel several times. Unless he's really crazy or he's planing how to resurrect Claudia. 

      What do you think?

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    • it's honestly hard for me to believe UT is Ciel's ancestor of any kind...i just don't see it happening, call it a gut feeling if you will. his behaviour is also too sketchy for me to think so (unless he doesn't know those are his progeny....?).

      but the manga seems to be hinting Ciel is related to a Shinigami...maybe Claudia was a Shinigami, that is an interesting theory i could get behind. BTW: i've been told Toboso had officially confirmed the existence of female shinigami, we just haven't seen one yet.

      although, nobody really specified it's a Shinigami in question. maybe he's related to a demon. they can sense/see Shinigami just fine, can't they? also {potential spoiler alert} - in season 2 of the anime - Ciel actually turns into a demon. not really cannon, but it could be foreshadowing. i've nothing to support this though, just a brain fart. could it even be possible, i don't know. or they can go with a full blown shinigami-demon hybrid.

      another thing - UT doesn't seem to possess the same bad vision as other shinigami. if he truly is related to the Phantomhives, it makes me wonder whether he himself was the human/shinigami hybrid, introducing this unique shinigami ability into the Phantomhive family. then again, a comment he made regarding the lack of spectacles on his person could indicate he does have bad vision - he just isn't relying on it exclusively.

      ultimately i guess there's still many scenarios possible at this point.

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    • That is very interesting since I say that the Undertaker could be related to the Phantomhives but these both could link together I will look at this theory to see if I can find anything.

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    • If the Undertaker was Cedric it could be that the Undertaker faked his death?

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    • Bassygamer101 wrote:
      If the Undertaker was Cedric it could be that the Undertaker faked his death?

      How could Undertaker become a reaper if he faked his death? If Cedric and Undertaker are the same person, then he must have had comitted suicide. 

      I don't think they'd be the same person, after all Cedric was Vincents and Francis's father so after Claudia died wouldn't they be wondering why Cedric/Undertaker doesn't age?

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    • <divclass="quote">ScarletLycrois wrote:
      <divclass="quote">Bassygamer101 wrote:
      If the Undertaker was Cedric it could be that the Undertaker faked his death?</div>How could Undertaker become a reaper if he faked his death? If Cedric and Undertaker are the same person, then he must have had comitted suicide. 

      I don't think they'd be the same person, after all Cedric was Vincents and Francis's father so after Claudia died (Which I think was when Ciel and his brother were young?) wouldn't they be wondering why Cedric/Undertaker doesn't age?</div>


      Cloudia died before the twins were even born - in 1866. And we don't know the life years of Cedric. There's no evidence he was "officially" alive after Cloudia's death. It could be that he faked his death when Vincent and Francis were still young so that they wouldn't notice that their father wasn't aging - if UT is Cedric. (This would mean that he "died" twice. The first time, he committed suicide and really died; the second time, he faked it to hide his immortality.)

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    • Both of that those are true I read manga 18 and ciel looked at the lockets one was cloudia Phantomhive so I wonder if the Undertaker was some one from the Phantomhive family. It is a small theory but I think manga 18 and up will help.

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    • after Claudia died (Which I think was when Ciel and his brother were young?) 

      Oh my god, people, did you read the manga?

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    • In the quite latest chapter, Undertaker could be seen by the twin AND Pit the reporter photographer. Wait, I sort of forgot could other people see Undertaker before? But then again, he said he could not differentiate the twin. He seems to be just fascinated by the Phantomhives.

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    • Jennieongga wrote:
      In the quite latest chapter, Undertaker could be seen by the twin AND Pit the reporter photographer. Wait, I sort of forgot could other people see Undertaker before? But then again, he said he could not differentiate the twin. He seems to be just fascinated by the Phantomhives.

      Yes, they can. Generally, Reapers can decide to be either invisible or visible. UT hid the fact that he was a Reaper until the Luxury Liner/Ship Voyage/Campania Arc.

      Therefore, before he was ALWAYS visible to everyone.

      When Ciel, Angelina, Sebastian, and Grelle visited him in the JTR/Red Butler Arc, he was visible to everyone.

      At Angelina's funeral, he was visible to everyone.

      At Sebastian's funeral, he was visible to everyone.

      On the Campania, he was visible to everyone.

      After the revelation that he is a Grim Reaper, he was, so far, always ever visible to everyone. At the Midnight Party, everyone could see him. Before, during the cricket tournament, everyone could see him. Even more before when the P4 had to hide their crimes, everyone could see him.

      So far, if I am not mistaken, only the German Reapers, Sascha and Ludger, had turned themselves invisible.

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    • TerriaNight wrote:
      Jennieongga wrote:
      In the quite latest chapter, Undertaker could be seen by the twin AND Pit the reporter photographer. Wait, I sort of forgot could other people see Undertaker before? But then again, he said he could not differentiate the twin. He seems to be just fascinated by the Phantomhives.
      Yes, they can. Generally, Reapers can decide to be either invisible or visible. UT hid the fact that he was a Reaper until the Luxury Liner/Ship Voyage/Campania Arc.

      Therefore, before he was ALWAYS visible to everyone.

      When Ciel, Angelina, Sebastian, and Grelle visited him in the JTR/Red Butler Arc, he was visible to everyone.

      At Angelina's funeral, he was visible to everyone.

      At Sebastian's funeral, he was visible to everyone.

      On the Campania, he was visible to everyone.

      After the revelation that he is a Grim Reaper, he was, so far, always ever visible to everyone. At the Midnight Party, everyone could see him. Before, during the cricket tournament, everyone could see him. Even more before when the P4 had to hide their crimes, everyone could see him.

      So far, if I am not mistaken, only the German Reapers, Sascha and Ludger, had turned themselves invisible.

      I believe this 'power' is only availble to active reapers. Remember UT was removed from his post and he should even have his Death Scythe but he managed to sneak away with it. UT doesn't seem to share the same qualities as the other 'active' reapers such as short-sightedness so maybe he just simply can't turn invisible to people because his abilities was taken away. Just a theory though...

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    • ScarletLycrois wrote:
      TerriaNight wrote:
      Jennieongga wrote:
      In the quite latest chapter, Undertaker could be seen by the twin AND Pit the reporter photographer. Wait, I sort of forgot could other people see Undertaker before? But then again, he said he could not differentiate the twin. He seems to be just fascinated by the Phantomhives.
      Yes, they can. Generally, Reapers can decide to be either invisible or visible. UT hid the fact that he was a Reaper until the Luxury Liner/Ship Voyage/Campania Arc.

      Therefore, before he was ALWAYS visible to everyone.

      When Ciel, Angelina, Sebastian, and Grelle visited him in the JTR/Red Butler Arc, he was visible to everyone.

      At Angelina's funeral, he was visible to everyone.

      At Sebastian's funeral, he was visible to everyone.

      On the Campania, he was visible to everyone.

      After the revelation that he is a Grim Reaper, he was, so far, always ever visible to everyone. At the Midnight Party, everyone could see him. Before, during the cricket tournament, everyone could see him. Even more before when the P4 had to hide their crimes, everyone could see him.

      So far, if I am not mistaken, only the German Reapers, Sascha and Ludger, had turned themselves invisible.

      I believe this 'power' is only availble to active reapers. Remember UT was removed from his post and he should even have his Death Scythe but he managed to sneak away with it. UT doesn't seem to share the same qualities as the other 'active' reapers such as short-sightedness so maybe he just simply can't turn invisible to people because his abilities was taken away. Just a theory though...

      It would make sense. But I wonder if being invisible it's necessary for whatever he's up to

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    • 84.77.241.37 wrote:
      Cedric K. Ros(rest of the surname unknown) is Ciel's grandfather, as he appears in the Phantomhive genealogy shown by the german shinigamis.

      I considered it as well, the problem is that his death date also seemed to be written, along with his birthdate (wich is itself a problem, as we don't know how shinigamis are originated). Since Undertaker is a shinigami that would be a problem, how could he have died? But then I thought that since he is a deserter, other shinigami may think he died, he could have feigned it.

      It would be interesting a love between Undertaker and Ciel's gran'. It would explain why he was with Vincent, and why he seems to worry about Ciel. Also, Undertaker said he had not been called "shinigami" for half a century... It could concur with Ciel's gran's life.

      About the origins of Shinigami, within Black butler, when a person kills themselves they are sentenced to an eternity as a Shinigami reaping souls

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    • Hey guys, first of all: sorry for my bad grammar, I'm from germany ^^ so my english is not as good as yours ^^ 

      Are shinigamis even able to reproduce themselves? I mean they commited suicide, they have to serve their sentence. So why should they have the 'honor' of reproduce themselves and making babies? 

      Maybe UT is an ancestor of the Phantomhive family from long long time ago and Claudia was the first of his descendant he met and her hair was the last thing he could keep from her. 

      That's just an idea by me. But they said in the anime that he collected the soul of Robin Hood, who lived around 1100. So he has to be minimum 1.000 years old if I*m right. Ok, the anime is not the manga and they have some differences, but something tells me that UT is 'very old' in the manga, too. 

      Well, maybe they had really a relationship and since Vincent is her son, he carried of him too. Many men care for the children of their beloved woman, even if it's not his own child. But why doen't he care for Francis then? He never mentioned her in the manga somehow. He never went sicretely to her side to look after her or Elisabeth, who is also a decent of the Phantomhives. Hmm. 

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    • A FANDOM user
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