| Skip to the Table of Contents | |
|---|---|
|
This is the talk page for the article "Grelle Sutcliff."
| |
Grell is actually over 100 years old judging by The story of Will the reaper. It says that Grell and Will both lived back in 1789 (I think it was 1789, please correct me if I'm wrong). --Kendiwolf (talk) 23:18, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
"Atashi"[]
Does anyone else think that this should be edited to include the fact that in the Japanese version he uses "Atashi", the feminine form of "I"?
213.94.178.43 15:31, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
Sutcliffe or Sutcliff[]
Since his surname seems to be based on that of London's serial killer Peter Suttcliffe, isn't the article's name equivocated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gobi-Aoi (talk • contribs)
The article only said Grell's name bears resemblance to Peter Sutcliffe, not that his name is based on that. Lau Talk to me!! What I do 
04:23,4/2/2013
Grell's Gender[]
As a transwoman myself, I'm extremely offended that there are still people who misgender Grell. She was one of my greatest role models and one the people who made me realise that being trans was ok, even though she is fictional. There are only a very small handful of places that respect Grell's pronouns, and I can believe that the official wiki of the anime isn't none of those places. I came to this wiki at first hoping that it could serve as a safe place whilst I was transitioning as I was a part of a transphobic family, but it actually caused even more sadness. I know you probably won't change Grell's pronouns, but I just wanted to let you know how I felt about it. Zippi Fox (talk) 22:34, December 12, 2015 (UTC)
- I could appease both sides by completely removing all gender pronounces to make the article gender-neutral. If you translate manga, you'll notice they rarely use gender pronouns anyway. Would anyone object to this? Likalaruku (talk)
- Oh, it looks like someone beat me to it, but I could re-redit it to avoid using "their" instead fo "his" or "hers" since Grell is not multiple people. Likalaruku (talk)
@Likalaruku, we've already had a discussion with Zippi Fox on this issue here which was 'bout half a year ago. I know you found out by the time of your second post but I'm honestly really surprised that you didn't check Grell's page before making your first post to see if it's already gender-neutral (and it is). "It looks like someone beat me to it" - lol, if this were a race you'd have lost nine months ago 'cuz that was when we decided to abandon the usage of male pronouns and started using they/them pronouns to refer to Grell. "Avoid using 'their'.....since Grell is not multiple people" - singular they exists. Lau Talk to me!! What I do 00:55,6/11/2016
Seriously? Plural?[]
It's really annoying. Just use the damn feminine pronouns. If the choice is between "her" and "their", please, go with the former. It's much easier to read. JoeEagar (talk) 10:12, January 2, 2016 (UTC)
Uh yes seriously. There are a lotta discrepancies between female and male 'cuz Toboso-sama can't seem to make up her mind - Toboso-sama has Grell consider themselves female but she herself considers Grell male. We can't just go with female or male so we're using they/them. Sux that it annoys you so much but the rest of us hafta deal with it...so you hafta too. You'll survive. :D Cheers. Lau Talk to me!! What I do 18:58,1/2/2016
I read somewhere Grell might have a dual gender identity? In that case, couldn't you just interleave feminine pronouns with masculine ones? Maybe something like this:
- Grell Sutcliff (グレル・サトクリフ, Gureru Satokurifu), sometimes romanized as "Grelle," is a Grim Reaper. She is part of the Retrieval Division of the Grim Reaper Dispatch. Grell initially posed as Angelina Dalles's butler and conspired with her as Jack the Ripper. He was suspended for some time as a result, but is now a fully active Grim Reaper.
- ...
- Grell has long, dark-red hair, shark-like teeth, and red-framed glasses which are accessorized with a chain with skulls. Her typical attire consists of a vest, gloves, a red and white striped bow tied around his neck, and red and black 11 cm[2] high-heeled ankle boots. Grell also sports a red coat she confiscated from Angelina Dalles after fatally wounding her, which he slings off his shoulders and wears around her elbows. He is described as "covered in red."[3]
What do you think? Perhaps not? JoeEagar (talk) 20:26, January 2, 2016 (UTC)
Nah, man, I think that'll just make it 10x more confusing. Lau Talk to me!! What I do 01:28,1/3/2016
Yana Toboso has stated more than once that she's always written Grell with the intention of her being trans woman, and even made an entire section of a volume of the manga practically done for the purpose of showing off how uncomfortable Grell is with having been born male. What is your basis for this "Toboso sees Grell as male" BS? The fact that the other character in this 1880s London setting don't understand or respect her and just see her as an insane man? TheSwedishElf (talk) 07:26, February 18, 2016 (UTC)
Toboso legitimately refers to Grell with MALE pronouns in real life, out-of-the-kuroshitsuji-universe - an example I can name off the top of my head is Downstairs with Black Butler VIII when she talks about Grell and says "his" shark teeth, and I know this 'cuz I own the volume this part is attached to. It's not "BS." It basically boils down to this - Toboso considers Grell male but has Grell identify as female in the series. It's super confusing and we can't just use male pronouns and ignore Grell's identity and we can't just use female pronouns and ignore how the creator of Grell refers to Grell. The safest bet is they/them pronouns so that the reader can interpret Grell for themselves. Honestly, we've had a 100000+ discussions on Grell's gender and this has been happening for years. It gets tiring. Have a good day. Lau Talk to me!! What I do 07:51,2/18/2016
Gender[]
Please, for the love of god, it's 2020. Fix Grelle's pronouns. She goes by she/her and that should be respected. Even if she is fictional there are many transgender fans and it's very disheartening to see that even in 2020 no one has fixed this.
Fans wouldn't have any impact on respecting it at all, and trying to say "because some fans think this" doesn't really help anything. The author's view on their own creation definitely takes precedence over how a bunch of fans feel it should be. However, like the page currently says, if you're limiting it to strictly how it's presented in universe then yes it makes some sense. Would say it's inaccurate as you're refusing to use the actual creator, but so long as the entirety of the wiki follows only using the manga then there's no conflict. DracoSafarius (talk) 02:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Yana Toboso says Grell's a trans woman too. So yeah, not only do we have the source material, but we also have its author's word. For Christ's sake, she literally made Grell's Confessional for the purpose of driving home that Grell identifies as a woman and believes she was born in the wrong body. It's really become pretty impressive what kind of mental gymnastics people will perform just to keep from admitting that Grell is intended to be a trans character. TheSwedishElf (talk) 15:17, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
If you two could take a look at the notice at the top of this talk page, you would know that talk pages are "reserved specifically for discussing changes to the article." Please have your dispute somewhere else, not here. Thank you. TerriaNight (talk) 16:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
It is related to changes, but was also saying the parent comment’s reasoning had no weight. Currently the page, using only one view and restricting it to the manga, is fine, but if some other page were formatted using something outside the manga then it’d be clashing and need some side changed so it fits under one stance for the whole wiki. Not going to go combing pages for examples since I was only here initially looking at something from discord, but made the first reply to just note so long as the current restriction for what’s considered for a source on the page applies to all others it’s fine, if not it should follow them and revert. DracoSafarius (talk) 17:47, 10 April 2023 (UTC))
The parent comment was written in 2020; Grelle's pronouns were changed throughout the wiki in 2022. The change was already done, and there is no need to reply and add to the parent comment any longer as this matter is resolved. No new changes were proposed as well. If you want to talk about other pages, please head to their respective talk pages or either directly message an admin or create a post on Discussions. Thank you. TerriaNight (talk) 18:31, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Doesn't matter when the reply was posted or when the changes were done. Their reasoning on it didn't hold any water, and with it being the last post prior to the changes it was reasonable to reply. New changes were proposed with reverting it to the previous version if not every other page on the wiki abides by only the manga with nothing else supplementing it outside of trivia, as that would be purposely ignoring evidence for some things while using that same evidence in others. Need it blanketed. Sebastian, for example by grabbing one at random, is using an author statement outside of trivia/out of universe, so that means the author's words should be used for pages and this one wouldn't be able to strictly sit by only referencing the manga and ignoring the times the author said otherwise (reverting it to purely neutral text), or that page (and others, sure there's more) would have to limit their info to manga (could use manga colored pages for the Sebastian example obviously). DracoSafarius (talk) 22:23, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Again, this page is Grelle's talk page, for general inquiries or propositions, go to the correct page!
And again, the gender debate is DONE on the wiki. The matter is over; the discussion was ended. There's no reason whatsoever to roll it up again and again. There will be no reversal.
If you spent your time googling instead of writing all that, you would know that there are actual wiki-wide rules for this case now. They say that if a fictional character states in-universe how they want to be referred as, that should be respected and implemented. Grelle wants to be referred to as a woman? She/her pronouns it is; end of discussion. Maybe take your thoughts to the Community Wiki and talk it out with them.
Furthermore, one special case does not mean, all information from Yana's Twitter/old blogs/etc. will suddenly be removed. And if you actually spent time reading Grelle's page, you would have found the section that says that Yana has never been exact in her speech when it comes to Grelle (= she never outright said that "Grelle is a trans woman" OR "Grelle is not trans"; she has never used the word trans(gender)); 100% of the debate comes from that. And because of this, the in-universe rule comes into play. TerriaNight (talk) 08:07, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
100% just a copout to try to use Fandom's guidelines. Those are problematic as is with pushing it one direction, but this is just showing you don't follow your own rulings. Either keep everything under the same scope of exclusion and follow this or include it all and go back to the previous intermediate and follow the others. Sitting in the middle is making both sides questionable on accuracy as the metric for how the pages are formatted isn't properly followed by either. DracoSafarius (talk) 19:56, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
GRELLE IS BIOLOGICALLY MALE!