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This is the talk page for the article "Grell Sutcliff."
Grell is actually over 100 years old judging by The story of Will the reaper. It says that Grell and Will both lived back in 1789 (I think it was 1789, please correct me if I'm wrong). --Kendiwolf (talk) 23:18, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that this should be edited to include the fact that in the Japanese version he uses "Atashi", the feminine form of "I"?
22.214.171.124 15:31, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
Sutcliffe or Sutcliff
The article only said Grell's name bears resemblance to Peter Sutcliffe, not that his name is based on that.
As a transwoman myself, I'm extremely offended that there are still people who misgender Grell. She was one of my greatest role models and one the people who made me realise that being trans was ok, even though she is fictional. There are only a very small handful of places that respect Grell's pronouns, and I can believe that the official wiki of the anime isn't none of those places. I came to this wiki at first hoping that it could serve as a safe place whilst I was transitioning as I was a part of a transphobic family, but it actually caused even more sadness. I know you probably won't change Grell's pronouns, but I just wanted to let you know how I felt about it. Zippi Fox (talk) 22:34, December 12, 2015 (UTC)
- I could appease both sides by completely removing all gender pronounces to make the article gender-neutral. If you translate manga, you'll notice they rarely use gender pronouns anyway. Would anyone object to this? Likalaruku (talk)
@Likalaruku, we've already had a discussion with Zippi Fox on this issue here which was 'bout half a year ago. I know you found out by the time of your second post but I'm honestly really surprised that you didn't check Grell's page before making your first post to see if it's already gender-neutral (and it is). "It looks like someone beat me to it" - lol, if this were a race you'd have lost nine months ago 'cuz that was when we decided to abandon the usage of male pronouns and started using they/them pronouns to refer to Grell. "Avoid using 'their'.....since Grell is not multiple people" - singular they exists.
It's really annoying. Just use the damn feminine pronouns. If the choice is between "her" and "their", please, go with the former. It's much easier to read. JoeEagar (talk) 10:12, January 2, 2016 (UTC)
Uh yes seriously. There are a lotta discrepancies between female and male 'cuz Toboso-sama can't seem to make up her mind - Toboso-sama has Grell consider themselves female but she herself considers Grell male. We can't just go with female or male so we're using they/them. Sux that it annoys you so much but the rest of us hafta deal with it...so you hafta too. You'll survive. :D Cheers.
I read somewhere Grell might have a dual gender identity? In that case, couldn't you just interleave feminine pronouns with masculine ones? Maybe something like this:
- Grell Sutcliff (グレル・サトクリフ, Gureru Satokurifu), sometimes romanized as "Grelle," is a Grim Reaper. She is part of the Retrieval Division of the Grim Reaper Dispatch. Grell initially posed as Angelina Dalles's butler and conspired with her as Jack the Ripper. He was suspended for some time as a result, but is now a fully active Grim Reaper.
- Grell has long, dark-red hair, shark-like teeth, and red-framed glasses which are accessorized with a chain with skulls. Her typical attire consists of a vest, gloves, a red and white striped bow tied around his neck, and red and black 11 cm high-heeled ankle boots. Grell also sports a red coat she confiscated from Angelina Dalles after fatally wounding her, which he slings off his shoulders and wears around her elbows. He is described as "covered in red."
Nah, man, I think that'll just make it 10x more confusing.
Yana Toboso has stated more than once that she's always written Grell with the intention of her being trans woman, and even made an entire section of a volume of the manga practically done for the purpose of showing off how uncomfortable Grell is with having been born male. What is your basis for this "Toboso sees Grell as male" BS? The fact that the other character in this 1880s London setting don't understand or respect her and just see her as an insane man? TheSwedishElf (talk) 07:26, February 18, 2016 (UTC)
Toboso legitimately refers to Grell with MALE pronouns in real life, out-of-the-kuroshitsuji-universe - an example I can name off the top of my head is Downstairs with Black Butler VIII when she talks about Grell and says "his" shark teeth, and I know this 'cuz I own the volume this part is attached to. It's not "BS." It basically boils down to this - Toboso considers Grell male but has Grell identify as female in the series. It's super confusing and we can't just use male pronouns and ignore Grell's identity and we can't just use female pronouns and ignore how the creator of Grell refers to Grell. The safest bet is they/them pronouns so that the reader can interpret Grell for themselves. Honestly, we've had a 100000+ discussions on Grell's gender and this has been happening for years. It gets tiring. Have a good day.