I've noted that you've changed the edits I made in the Glass Eyes page and I came here to clarify some points of this edit:
The name "Glass Eyes" is a fan translation of the song's original name, 硝子の瞳
Although romanization (nization? jization? I not sure which is correct) can lead to multiple results, the official romaji for the song 硝子の瞳 is Garasuno Hitomi and not Garasu no Hitomi, as you can see at the iTunes album listing and at the video I added to the page, which comes from the official Sid YouTube channel. These translations come from the record label (Ki/oon Music) or from the artist, and are the official romaji name for the music. P.H. CP (talk) 02:39, August 20, 2019 (UTC)
So i have a question thats probably been asked before, Why dont we change Grells gender. I believe that he is a male transitioning into a female. I have evidence backing this up, In the 11th episode being His Butler,However you please, Ciel and Grell are about to enter the building of what is the master of Drossel Keinds house. Right before, Ciel offers grell to go in with him for safety . Grell does say "How insulting! Earl or Not, You think im the type of woman you can just buy with money?". I do think that Yana Toboso said that Grell is transitioning and that Grell has been looking for a doctor who would be willing to do the procedure so i do believe everything i said . Sorry to Bug you And for this long paragraph. I dont know if this is enough info on this topic.
As you may have noticed on Grell's page, there is no gender listed in the infobox. Instead, under the Trivia section, you can find the note that "Grell is an okama" with a reference. (Unfortunately, you can only view it if you have tumblr. If you do not have a tumblr account, please just trust me here.)
"Okama" is a Japanese slang word which can refer to homosexuals (specifically to homosexual men who use effeminate speech and/or display effeminate or flamboyant mannerisms and traits), transvestites, drag queens, or transgender women.
I have no idea where you heard/read that Yana Toboso stated that Grell wants to transition, but all she ever said regarding Grell and this topic is that Grell is an okama and has the "heart of a girl" (this does not necessarily mean that Grell is a trans woman: an okama can also be an effeminate homosexual man after all).
In episode 11 (and various others and here and there in the manga whenever Grell appears as well and in the Character Guide), Grell can be heard/read using female/effeminate speech and referring to themself as a woman/lady. This does not necessarily mean that Grell actually sees themself as a trans woman though.
There is a lot of dispute in the fandom whether Grell is a gay man or a trans woman. According to Yana Toboso, Grell is an okama which means, theoretically, Grell could be either - or a transvestite or a drag queen. It is a matter of personal preference.
Because Grell is biologically male, the Wiki used to refer to Grell as a "he". However, due to the aforementioned dispute and because "okama" is such a vague term, it was decided to use the neutral "they" for Grell on the Wiki instead. (On older pages which have not been edited in years, you may still find Grell being referred to as a "he". Feel free to correct this if you stumble over such a page.)
As Wikis should be kept neutral and objective, the "gender" parameter in Grell's infobox will be kept empty, and Grell will continue to be referred to with the pronouns "they/them".
Hi there, I have recently started watching Black Butler and really got into the series. So I added some info on the triplets. I saw you reverted it however. Was something wrong with it? Sorry, if I made some mistakes, please tell me so I can avoid them in the future :)
I have reverted your edits because there were a bunch of editorial mistakes in them and reverting them was just the easiest choice.
1. Please always add references. If you write something like "The Triplets are seen cleaning up after Alois Trancy gouged Hannah's eye out during his breakfast." you cannot just leave it as it is. You have to put a reference behind it. In this case, it would be <ref>''Kuroshitsuji II'' anime, Episode 1</ref>
After every little summary of what a character did in an episode, a reference is necessary.
2. Use in-universe writing. Something like "The Triplets are seen cleaning up after Alois Trancy gouged Hannah's eye out during his breakfast." or "Somewhen before the main events, she managed to befriend Elizabeth and somehow managed to get herself invited by Ciel." should be avoided because "are seen cleaning up" and "Somewhen before the main events" are not in-universe writing. It should be more like sth along the lines of "The Triplets clean up..." and "At some point (in the past)..."
3. Do not remove infobox parameters or change their order. Even if they are not filled out, they should stay where they are. Putting them back is quite the nuisance.
4. Please use "they/their" as pronouns for Grell. You wrote "Grell then killed them with his Death Scythe." which is something that should be avoided. Due to the ongoing debate of whether to use male or female pronouns for Grell, the Wiki has decided to just take the neutral option with "they/their."
(You may find the wrong pronouns on really old (often, non-manga) pages. Feel free to correct them if you spot them.)
5. Take care of the tenses. Sometimes, you jump around between the present and the past, but pretty much everything should be written in present.
Well, it's quite late for me, so I may have missed a few things, but it should help to check out the Wiki's policies and take a look at other pages to get a feel of how things should be done. (In general, your edits are fine, but need some fine tuning.)
Anyway, really glad that you are enjoying Kuroshitsuji and are so kind to help improving this Wiki! If you have any questions, always feel free to ask me, and I hope you'll have fun here^^
Oh, hi! First of all, thanks for expanding that page and working with what I told you.
Second, please do not upload any images in .jpg/.jpeg format; we only accept .png images! (I'm actually slowly getting rid of all pre-existing .jpg images if you are wondering why there are still ones here and there.) Also, please name the images correctly! The format is, for example, 101 Ciel.png (the first number is for the season, the last two for the episode)
Additionally, I want to tell you that anime synopses on manga character pages should not be added. There used to be anime synopses on their pages, but we eventually got rid of them. All important relevant info on their anime counterparts are to be added very concisely under Trivia#Anime.
On Queen Victoria's page, you are free to add her season 3 image to her infobox if you reupload it according to the rules, but please keep the season 1 info under Trivia. It's too different from the canon.
(And keep in mind not to mess up infobox parameters^^)
Thank you. The site hasn't had an admin for two years, and there's a lot of missing information. I'm working as fast as I can to update everything before the release of Season 3, which is currently only available in Korea, there isn't a definite release date for the English translation, so, I'm doing rough translations, of the 3rd season for my site.
I'm also holding the fort on Noblesse wiki, since the admins are currently taking a break, so I know how tiring it is looking after a community by yourself. You're doing a fantastic job, and if you need someone to talk to, you can message me, for any reason.
This is a collection of all the data I have compiled in the claim that Ash/Angela are not fallen angels. Though this debate is one of the last things I wish to get sparked up again, I've grown weary of people (Namely haters) using inaccurate info for a character they appear to have done VERY little research into, and wish to resolve it once and for all. I'll be using Bible references, first-hand knowledge about Paganism, Philosophical knowledge on Chaos and Order, quotes from the anime, my knowledge from what I've studied about angels, and possibly psychology to support this claim:
Ash/Angela are not fallen angels. They are not evil in the moral sense of the word.
Here's a quick list of my evidence, which I'll go into more detail about later on.
1 ~Fallen angels (Except for Lucifer) don't have wings.
2 ~Demons and fallen angels are the same thing.
3 ~God and Ash/Angela share the same morals, and have committed similar acts.
4 ~Ash/Angela might not even BE Christian to begin with, but instead Pagan.
5 ~They want world peace, and complete equality for all humans.
6 ~They wanted to give Ciel a happy life.
7 ~A recap that YWVH tried and sometimes even succeeded to wipe out the Earth MULTIPLE times for the same purpose. (Though this is mainly just a FEW Bible scriptures I saw when reading Proverbs and Genesis and whatnot which I thought went nicely.)
First reason and second reason!
Not much to say here, about the first reason besides making it as simple as possible: Fallen angels don't have wings; Except for Lucifer. And I'm pretty sure Lucifer is the last thing Ash/Angela is, otherwise they wouldn't have met with such a fate and it'd be Sebastian up on that bridge instead.
Second reason... Let me ask you this question: What is an angel? An angel is completely pure, unstained, positive energy; and runs on a strict law alignment. There is no such thing as an 'Evil angel', because if there were; Then it would be a fallen angel. A demon is the exact opposite of an angel- Negative energy, filthy, and runs on a rampant chaos alignment. An angel cannot have negativity in it, and vice versa- Otherwise they become meshed up and end up somewhere neutral and in between. So therefore, when an angel falls, it loses it's wings and the previous energy pulses emitted becomes the exact opposite of what it was, but with this newfound intelligence and free will, it could become up to 5x more powerful than it previously as on it's own - They become demon. A demon is the same thing as a fallen angel- The equivalent to the nonexistent 'Evil angel'. As a matter of fact; It is told in some places of the Bible that all demons cast into hell were once angels.
This SHOULD be enough evidence to disprove that they're evil and/or fallen, but alas; Many fans (Or in this case, haters) tend to look elsewhere for their own argument.
"But REAL angels would never act like that!! Besides, Sebastian said Ash/Angela were fallen."
Below is a provided list of all of God's kills in the Bible, many which were based off similar reasons as Ash/Angela: Purification.
As for Sebastian's "Claim" in the English dub of Episode 24- "You've fallen, haven't you..." Was the only time he had said anything of them being fallen, and it was a mistranslation/misinterpretation from the original subs: "How the mighty have fallen." At 4:13 minutes in. I believe the subs speak for itself. There is also COMPLETELY contradictory information given at episode 18.
In episode 18, both Sebastian's dub AND sub state their divine origins. At 17:14 minutes in, the subbed conversation goes as follows:
Angela: Do you think a demon can compare with an immaculate-winged angel? Wingless demons are chained to the Earth... For eternity.
Sebastian: Oh, is that so? In that case, may you be chained to the heavens.
And the dubbed version:
Angela: You think a demon can compare to the purity of a winged angel in flight? A creature like you is chained to the Earth... Forever.
Sebastian: Really? Is that so? Then I suppose that means you are forever chained to the heavens.
Had they been fallen angels (Especially seeing that Black Butler takes a somewhat theological POV in the anime), this would make little sense on both ends- Since fallen angels, as previously stated, do not have wings.
It is stated in Jude 1:6 in the Bible "...And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;". At this point I would also wish to note Ash's excitement and tears of joy in Episode 24: "At that the great and notable day of our father cometh!" A fallen angel/demon certainly wouldn't be so estatic about having judgment passed on them... And might I also ask why they would pass judgment and begin Doomsday if fallen? It doesn't line up.
In 2 Peter 2:4, it says: "For if God did not spare the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be kept for judgment;" thus relating to her statement of being chained to the Earth. Angela/Ash, who is STILL among the divine, would naturally be chained to the heavens. Considering angels fell off their own free will and became demons, the last thing they would wish (In a theological sense; In Pagan/Energy type terms it'd simply be a change from positive energy to negative) is to be close to the same God they worked so hard (And even went to war) to get away from.
Next reason, then?
So let's talk about God's flood! You know- The one where he pretty much killed all but a few chosen organisms because the world had been put into a stance of filth. Now, imagine he had set the world on fire instead. Who does that remind you of?
If God can kill, so can his angels- You know, his workers.
As a matter of fact, angels AREN'T the cute cuddly beings normal humans make them out to be!! They're known for being extremely violent beings (Check Book of Revelations if you don't believe me.) Many times throughout the Bible it's stated that angels are instruments to bring upon judgment, messages, and other things- They simply carry out the will of YWVH. (A good example are the four archangels- Uriel means "Flame of God", who, may I also state, is depicted with a sword and flame in his hands! Raphael means "God heals", so on and so forth. Every angel was created for a single purpose special to them! Ash/Angela's would most likely be "Angel of Massacre" As said in Ep. 18)
Also, if this rings a bell about Episode Eighteen, they are known to rewrite people's memories or give them visions and/or prophecies. On top of that, Satan has only killed an estimated ten people in the Bible. Compared to YWVH's kills, generally tantamount to genocide as I've provided in a table above. Oh, yes- This doesn't even include his flood where he's left just eight people alive.
Compared to the literal billions YWVH has killed in the Bible (That table alone has 891,409 kills), Especially when Angela (The- Not fallen angel- Not demon- But ANGEL of Massacre) quotes in Episode Twenty, "Soon the true Doomsday will come." What's another term for Doomsday? Revelation/Apocalypse. This was literally a planned event for not just London, but the WORLD, where YWVH would send his angels down to create a world full of peace and harmony. YWVH planned this, should the anime really be taking a religious view on things. They were no better than Drocell if you really think about it- Just puppets doing as told. But I'm not about to victimise them; Because they knew full well what would happen to the world and had a conscious spirit- Just programmed and robotic like. Angels don't have what can be considered souls, because they're literally bland and monotone- Completely flavourless, to a demon.
That aside, YWVH kills people for a few reasons- Either they're filthy and making the world a bad place, they're simply unnecessary to the world and it's growth, or they've made it so that they aren't wanted by either his plan or the humans. Now who does that sound like? Don't go calling Ash/Angela 'Fake' angels when they're just like their creator- They were created to do his bidding, after all. One more thing before we move on. The reason angels in the Bible always introduce themselves with the phrase "Do not be afraid" is because not only were their general forms terrifying (Multiple faces and thousands of eyes, some so big they touched the sky, etc.) back then angels had a reputation of just how terrifying and violent they actually were as their presence was more... known, so they wanted to reassure the humans they weren't going to brutally torture them to death and in fact had good news! Well, most the time.
It isn't officially confirmed whether or not Black Butler takes a religious (As in Christian, Jewish, etc..) perspective or not on angels and demons, though largely hinted multiple times throughout the show, but in the scenario they don't, then it'd obviously resorting to one thing: Paganism, where the demons, angels, and reapers shown are actually just personifications of energy. In Pagan belief, as well as Christian belief back in the day (Mainly during the Witch Hunt era) it was thought that setting fire to something/someone was the only way to set free it's soul and completely purify it- Depending on how filthy someone's soul was, they'd use water to cleanse it at times; Thus explaining why so many witches were either burnt at the stake or drowned.
Pagan's believe in the ultimate Earth spirit; That the Earth is indeed one giant soul- Better phrased, all things have some sort of energy radiating off them- From trees and flowers to even rocks. They all have some sort of energy radiating off of them, some sort of life. When these things die they return to the ultimate spirit, and become one with it. It is seen through a certain quote in Episode Twenty Three- Personally my favourite quote in general- Which could imply that they are a Pagan.
Dubs: "When you look at them closely, all things are two sides of the same coin. Morning and night, man and woman, light and darkness. But when they are put through the purifying flames they become one. They return to the essential existence beloved of the father."
Subs: "When you examine them closely, all things emit their own intense light. Morning and night, man and woman, light and darkness. If those things are well-burnished and made one, the return to their primal forms."
Unless they're that apt on equality in the human race (Which is equally believable), this can also be used as a hint towards their being as a Pagan- Many Pagans believe that the world is in it's best, pure form when things are restored to it's natural order. So, there's two ways their goals in setting fire could go, ultimately:
Christian views would have it that they're the start of the revelation/Doomsday. In doing so, they plan to create a world of equality and happiness for all. Everything is completely and utterly equal, one large group of humans who all think alike and exist to help each other!
Pagan views would have it that they're working to restore the natural order of things, and thus they are destroying anything 'Unclean' 'Unnecessary' or 'Unwanted'. Either way, not much bad to keep in mind.
The final reasons- Five six and seven
Alright, I'm going to sum this up pretty quickly:
Reason five- In Episode 22 at 11:10 minutes in Ash states "The Queen and Her husband firmly intend guide England to a world of perfect light, a world of beauty and harmony." In Episode 20 Angela states at 8:49, "The true Doomsday will arrive in due time...." That, hand in hand with their quote from Ep. 22 (May I also add Queen Victoria's words in Episode 22 at 8:10: "No creation without destruction") simply means: "Hey, in order to bring upon our father's (That means YWVH's) world of purity, harmony and equality we first gotta get rid of all the corruption and stuff he doesn't need/want so it actually works!" If you can justify whatever the hell Sebastian does whether it's morally okay or not (Which it usually isn't) with "His master ordered him it's not his fault!!!!" Then there should be enough justice to doing your job on YWVH's orders. Just sayin'. Don't get pissy at the angels who blew the trumpets!
Reason six- This is much easier to explain as it's simply just an explanation of what they wanted from Ciel and what would have happened to him had they been successful. In Episode 18 Angela attempts a purification of Ciel's past and attempts to give him a release from his hatred and the power to move on to the future. Had she succeeded at this, he would be able to go on with his life as a more normal child at that time, Ash/Angela would have gone on with their plans at the right time (I say this because I partially wonder if they felt pressured to clean out London after the events at Paris), and well... Many more lives would be spared, and I'm quite certain that everyone (Except a certain demon who's now lost his meal) would be quite overjoyed to see a previously lost and broken soul let go of their hate and finally move forward towards a meaningful goal in life, rather than revenge. Not a bad end for any Ciel fans out there, hm?
Nonetheless, that job fits the direct description of an angel- As a matter of fact, in some Catholic traditions it's believed that angels, much similarly to Angela, would give humans dreams to help pursue or encourage them to change their perception, complete their mission, or turn towards a more enlightened path in life.
Reason seven- I've already stated numerous times throughout this argumentative essay that YWVH has caused many deaths similar to Ash/Angela in terms of reason, and sometimes even the nature of killing. So here I will simply list a few more Biblical scriptures which may go hand in hand with my argument, or most which I feel I would be leaving out if I didn't put them in here- I admit that they may not be direct evidence, so you are free to ignore them, however I feel it would still be good to put them on for a more "Vague" explanation of things. I'm sure there may be many more out there- But I'm not going to read over and nitpick a text that large to prove something with some much evidence backed up already; These are just about a few I got from Proverbs and one in Genesis.
At the bottom is said list of things I thought was interesting and familiar, but I can't say much in EXACT correlation with the theory. 24:19-22
Genesis 19:12 and 19:13.... Direct proof that YES, this is not the first time an angel has destroyed a city because it was full of filth.
12"Meanwhile, the angels questioned the lot. "Do you have any other relatives here in the city?" they asked. "Get them out of this place- your sons-in-laws, sons, daughters, or anyone else.
13 For we are about to destroy this city completely. The outcry against this place is so great it has reached the Lord, and he has sent us to destroy it."
For more details on the destruction of the city, which yes, was presumably burnt as implied in Genesis 19:24, I'd recommend reading from 19:12 to 19:25.
As for Proverbs, here are the more vague ones. You're free to ignore them, but looking over them would be appreciated. I've bolded the parts which stood out to ME the most (To each, their own!), in correlation to this theory. After each quote I've a small explanation how I PERSONALLY believe it may correlate to them.
Proverbs 13:9.... "The life of the godly is full of light and joy, but the light of the wicked will be snuffed out." ....There isn't much to say on this one, but the small note on wickedness and impurity being "Snuffed out", which is also frequently quoted by Ash/Angela in various spots in the show.
Proverbs 13:24.... "Those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children. Those who love their children care enough to discipline them." ... In correlation of why Ash/Angela wanted to purify the filth on YWVH's orders. (For deeper explanation on that, check out reason five!)
Proverbs 15:10.... "Whoever abandons the right path will be severely disciplined; Whoever hates correction will die." ... Once again, in correlation of the "Stagnancy and impurity" as quoted by Queen Victoria in Episode 22, right before the purification which sweeps through London.
Proverbs 17:3.... "Fire tests the purity of silver and gold, but the Lord tests the heart." ... Not only does this talk of fire as a tool for purification, but, though it may be coincidental, I would also like to note of the "Silver and Gold" in relation to what Drocell's finest dolls were made of. It certainly made me think back to the Cursed Stone Arc!
Proverbs 19:3.... "People ruin their lives by their own foolishness, and then are angry at the Lord." ...I come to think of the Phantomhive and London fires with this. Not much else to say but I felt it was worth noting!
Proverbs 20:9.... "Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure and free from sin"?" ... Flashback to Episode 15- At 18:03 minutes in. "Really, if you think about it, there is no one in this world who can claim to be completely pure of heart."
Proverbs 20:30.... "Psychical punishment cleanses away evil, such discipline purifies the heart." .... Psychical punishment cleanses away evil- I think back to a lot of things- Cursed Stone arc, Phantomhive fire, London fire- Mainly Episode 20, however.
19 "Don't fret because of evildoers; Don't envy the wicked."
20 "For evil people have no future;The light of the wicked will be snuffed out." ... See Proverbs 13:9!
21 "My child, fear the Lord and the king. Don't associate with rebels."
22 "For disaster will hit them suddenly. Who knows what punishment will come from the Lord and the king?" ... I always come back to London fires when I see this!! It certainly did hit them suddenly; As no one was "Pure of heart" by that point there would most likely be none spared.
So there's what I have to say! I apologise for the length; I simply wanted to cover everything!! If you're wondering and would like to look deeper into the references; The Bible I used is the NIV (New International Version). I sincerely hope that you will acknowledge this and take action as you see fit. I look forward to seeing our angels get the title they deserve! Have you read this far.... From the bottom of my heart; Thank you so much for taking the time to read this! Have a good day.
Hi! I appreciate the effort you put into this; however, I have to say that Ash and Angela will still be classified as "Fallen Angels" on this Wikia.
1. This Wiki is about the Kuroshitsuji universe, and thus, chronicles everything stated/given/done/said/whatever in said universe. And in the anime, Ash/Angela are explicitly called angels and fallen angels. That they are angels/fallen angels is canon to the Kuro anime - and not just something the Wiki editors made up because it was never said in the anime itself what they are.
2. Kuro universe ≠ reality. Kuroshitsuji is a fictional story. Thus, certain things differ from reality. For example, Fred Abberline is not called "Frederick Abberline" on this Wiki even though the full name of the historical person Fred was based on was Frederick Abberline. That's because in the manga/anime itself, it was at no point said that Fred's full name is Frederick. Fred is also, unlike his real life counterpart, not 46 years old. He's also not married as far as we (the readers) know.
3. Christianity is not a widely practiced religion in Japan. Only about 2.3 percent of Japanese people are Christians. Most are Shintoists or Buddhists. This means that most/many Japanese people have no real idea of Christian beliefs. That's the reason why you see so often in animes things like little girl/teenage girl nuns or combat priests. That's the reason why Christmas is celebrated so differently in Japan. This also means that, of course, if they did not do enough research, their depiction of angels/fallen angels in the sense written in the Bible or whatever is not correct but faulty.
According to the anime, the Kuro canon, Angela and Ash are fallen angels; and they will be continued to be referred to as such on this Wikia.
Of course! Thank you for your time. While I disagree that they were called fallen in the show (Putting mistranslations aside) I suppose I can see your other points. Hopefully one day their title will be redeemed- Till then, I feel very thankful that you at least took the time to look over my claim!! Have a good day.
I just wanted to add a link and some commentary to one of my archived posts, but see that we're now instructed to contact an admin first. So that's what I'm doing.
It's just additional evidence so there's no point making a separate thread.
Yes, that's some kind of weird bug thing. Well, anyway, I listed the thread under "DisableOn" in the LockForum code, so that it gets unlocked again.
However, as the LockForum function is handled via the Common.js page, it can take a while until the thread gets unlocked. (The code on the Common.js page, no matter how minimal the change is, always has to be reviewed and approved by Wiki Staff before it gets activated. So, I cannot say how long this process will take, but, usually, it doesn't take all too long. I hope this is fine?)
Grell's gender is a rather... delicate matter. Officially/Canon, Grell is an okama (some info on that) and biologically male.
However, the term "okama" is mostly unknown in the Western world/outside Japan, so many interpret Grell as a trans woman - so while it should be kept in mind that Grell is officially/canon an okama and biologically male, Grell's gender identity/sexuality (in your headcanons) can be interpreted however you like.